Yeah my point is that I don't think they should be profitable to gank. I think it should be possible, but not necessarily profitable (profitable might be the wrong word, but more that the expenses should be higher for the attacker than the defender).

i nearly took you seriously until you said miners could be afk for hours demonstrating you've never mined for more than 5 mins in your entire life.

Thats actually an amusing story.

Incidentally, Mara Rinn is a perfect example of the 'smart' high-sec miner.
While I am generally inactive during the summer, I've recently made a few ganking passes through her mining systems.
She tanks her Hulk hard, and is quite content to continue mining away - with ice at record high prices. She pays attention to her surroundings, knows that I work alone - and am unlikely to crack her tank without spending far more than I'd like. And she broadcasts warnings to the other miners in local.

Fortunately for me, there usually are a few targets in system that don't pay attention and I get my kills as well.
I get to blow up some Exhumers, and she has less mining competition, allowing her to sell her ice at higher prices.

Win for the ganker, Win for the 'smart' miner, exactly how it should be.

This is false. You could increase the base EHP on a Hulk to 200,000, and it still would not be "risk free".

The only risk-free thing you can do in Eve is stay docked.

No...just, no.

See, Ruby Porto there, loves to post that list of "how not to die as a miner" in every thread he comes across where someone bitches and whines about getting ganked. I like it, I like alot of it. I actually have done quite a bit of it myself. I mine in grav sites and mission sites when I'm in high sec, otherwise I'm hidden in WH's.

Here's my problem with his list when it comes to fitting. Which is really what we're arguing about in this thread. The stat changes and fitting changes to barges.

He includes the exhumers using every single slot fitted for tank.

It is not acceptable that just to survive vs. a T1 dessie for all of 25 seconds a T2 Exhumer commit every single slot and rig to tanking.

Imagine if you flew anything other than an Abaddon in a Lvl 4 with every slot packed with T2 tank mods you were expected to explode within 30 seconds. There would be people complaining about the ship imbalance. People might feel that either the difficulty of the missions or the tanks of other batteships was off.

Needless to say, there would be some bittervet screaming about back in his day, there were no Abaddon's and they ran Lvl 4's in Fleets, exploded, and they liked it!

If an exhumer with half slots tank, half slots yield, had a chance against a decent ass dessie fit, we wouldn't be where we are today. But it doesn't, and here we are.

Suck it up, HTFU, and adapt.

Not arguing that, just regurgitating an oft used position taken by gankers when carebears make the mistake of assuming high-sec is 100% safe.

Where did I say I have ever been caught? I avoid em by actions. Its fittings/stats that are the subject of disagreement. Keep up with the conversation.

*sigh*

We haven't. You're straw manning towards actions while the discusson is about statistics.

If it helps you along:

seriously your only retort to "hey look, a mackinaw/hulk that can fit a tank" is "well it's inconvenient and it reduces my ~isk/hr~ so CCP should fix it so that I don't have to think for myself"

Admit the only reason you care is this will lessen the demand for tech

Sorry I should say your reimbursement program will take a hit... Which in the long run could affect your fighting policy

Its true you used to run the nc with mm now you are no better then firmius ixon...

guys, (this applies to the null/low whiners) what say you if I do my best to put together a corp of new players get them all excited and take them to this super "safe" place that I know about where its secret. we can mine and pve to our hearts content, then give you said location so that you can asplode them?
would you all shut the hell up?

That is goddamned terrible advice to tell somebody - it's like saying "don't bother going to nullsec until you can fly a titan"

I see what you did there and that is clearly not the case except in your own mind. The devs have stated that it was a mistake to make the miner vessels profitable to be ganked. But they do not intend to make them gank proof. They are supposed to cost more to gank than they cost to replace when fitted for their role. That was stated already by a dev in this thread. You are wrong. And it has nothing at all to do with a poor war fit as a miner is not a war vessel. It is intended for mining. Just because you can does not mean you should.

What happens in EVE when anyone pushes an exploit too far. It gets nerfed. How many times do you have to be nerfed before you get the hint? Obviously the devs have not nerfed you enough yet. You are still beating the dead horse.

i am going to ask again because i didn't got a answer yet
WHY AREN'T PEOPLE ALLOWED TO AFK MINE IF THEY WANT? You goons and other nullsec idiots have your AFK moongoo , so that shouldn't be allowed if you continue with your logic

Wow! Nearly 50 pages now of the same arguments being repeated over and over and over and over and over.........

I actually read through about 30 pages before I got bored reading the same basic moans and groans, just rephrased in a colorful rainbow of wording. The whining flows heavily in this thread from both industrialists and gankers alike, although (and I'm personally not suprised) more so from the ganker side.

But what really tickles me reading through this drudge is when I hear gankers arguing over the numbers game in terms of costs. I mean, lets be real here and admit. Most of those who gank mining ships are not doing it for the easy isk (which it definitely is). No, most of them are doing it purely for the "tears". I mean, lets look at the very name of the corp for the OP. Ahh the shear irony of someone part of a corp focused on collecting tears and yet coming to the forums shedding his own. The changes haven't even been implemented yet and what? Business already so slow you gotta make and collect your own??

Then I 'lol'd at the people who claim that miners have been crying and CCP is "stooping down" to give them a buff. How many times have we heard nullsec pvpers (and yeah, I am one) complain that this or that needs to be buffed or nerfed. Or throw in faction warfare. Or throw in war decs. I say cheers to the miners for finally getting a bit of attention from CCP.

What I also think is comical about most people in this thread is that they claim you should fit a hulk for tanking in High Sec. That people shouldn't be capable of AFK mining. I say until CCP makes mining more interesting (and even the pvpers admit mining is incredibly boring though I doubt many of them have done it for more then perhaps 30mins), can you REALLY blame them for doing it at least semi-afk?? I've mined ore and i'm generally thinking. "omg....I'm so bored! Please ganker shoot me so I can have an excuse to end my miserable existance!" And then I tried mining ice....I think that's when i thankfully learned what ctrl-q (or I guess alt-shft-q now) really did!

So again, I tip my hat to you full time miners in finally getting some much needed love from CCP. In my opinion, it's not really that much but it's certainly well deserved attention. And gankers, before you kill that miner, which I'm sure you'll do even after the changes, be sure to thank that miner for supplying the materials to build that very same ship your about to kill him with.

it is effortless once you own the system only thing you need to do is set up a pos start the proces after that it is only a question of refueling and empty the storage bins so don't give me that crap that moongoo is hard work and involves hours upon hours of boring yourself to death watching the lights on your pos
well i am pretty pissed off at any of your nullsec wankers , death sick of your comments how people should play your game all the while you cry and whine about anything that has the remote chance of pulling down your own little carebear sandcastle

Your regurgitated rhetoric is terribly played out. As players we don't have the opportunity or ability to "earn buffs". They're given or taken away based on perceived imbalances in the mechanics of the game. CCP decided, and the vast majority of the forum posting populace agrees, that Barges and Exhumers needed to be rebalanced as their current incarnation just plain sucks. Whatever argument you have against this re-balance is, frankly, irrelevant as it's going to happen anyway as you and others in opposition have failed to provide meaningful evidence or sound reasoning to convince CCP to scrap their plans.

Yeah they should have gone around in topless with some slogans and then all to mine Jita state's face!

okay the second question was a bit of a **** move considering that it's terribly inconclusive, but if it it died to one catalyst then i somehow doubt that it had its hardeners on

All points are Irrelevant. Kill is a kill. Titan or 5000 Catalysts... Doesn't matter.

"Tanked Hulk can't be ganked" is what you nullbears keep saying.

Except that this change in no way "nerfs intelligent gameplay". At the very worst this re-balance forces gankers to make a few more friends (crazy idea in an MMO, I know) and at best it diminishes the profitability of ganking. Miners are still going to be gankable in all but the most extreme circumstances that the chicken little crowd you're apart of seem to think will be the new norm.

To be fair, a large number of your cronies, including Ruby and Richard have been beating this nugget of dead horse around for quite awhile. It's been proven incorrect on a number of occasions, but they still believe it.

You're reaching. Adding EHP does not make mining barges into ungankable fortresses. It makes them less profitable to gank. That's it.

You're starting to sound dumber and dumber. Is it late where you are? Have you been drinking? Are you mining currently? Have you ever mined? Do you know what it's like mining in a Hulk without a Survey Scanner? Do you know what happens when trying to fit a module to a ship when you've run out of CPU or PG? No ship is forced to dedicate every slot to increasing it's tank at the expense of whatever it's primary role is, so why should Hulk's be any different? Were you dropped on your head as a toddler?

They don't.

Of course it doesn't. But here's you being intentionally obtuse again.

Cool rhetoric, bro.

Except you're wrong on every point. But that hasn't stopped you or your compadres from posting before, so why stop now?

Will survive 3 cats in a .5 system

pubbie

Sounds like someone can't adapt to having their "easy mode" ganking made "hard mode"..

Ahh you must be a miner then, otherwise you wouldn't care about this thread and the changes so much?

you mention miners are becoming dumber since its easier now. But then you say its easy to gank other ships, and they will stay easy. So you as a ganker are dumb then? and as well as staying dumb? It will just cost more money, to support your dumbness?

The HS gankers include a large portion of low sec folks, null sec folks, and HS folks. Remember, a lot of gankers are alts.

Yes keep making them re-buffed again and again, that'll really show them.

James Amril-kesh has suggested that the game would be better for us all if, 'the puny ones' leave the game.

I disagree, Eve would just not be the same without gankers.

Gone are the days in Eve where 0.0 strife (BoB v. Goons, the Drone Wars etc etc) drove the game...have we fallen so low that all we have to discuss are the 2 professions that were once considered beneath contempt and not thread-worthy...

No, no, no.

Turn that around:

Those days are gone because no-one cares anymore, and the reason for that is 100% legit:

See, real adults don't take a freakin' video-game that seriously, plus they generally have little use for lame-ass e-drama that informs this.

Zerosec is a semi-consensual battleground full of no-life douchebags with monumentally overblown egos. The real sandbox is in empire-space hisec, in large part because of the false sense of security of many of its denizens.

The new mining stuff sucks. So much so, that I'm going to start flying my miner alt just so I can gank him myself! Stupid miner!

I'm going to gank myself. You should try it too! Gank yourself. It's fun!

..and that Richard Goon Guy said it's not about profit, so the fact that it'll now be more expensive to gank miners seems a bit of a non-issue. Which begs the question, wtf were the last 90-odd pages about??

No, its more about adding unnecessary HP to a ship so easily tanked to discourage ganking that people who never bother to do so never learn from their mistakes and become repeat targets. Those are the people creating problems, not the gankers.

People who change other peoples quotes are pretty much bottom feeders.

Yeah they clearly reroll their NPC alt with a similar name, same corp and announce it loud in local: "HEY GUYS I AM RECYCLING ALTS!"

i think its a drastic overbuff

96 pages of ganker tears.

I don't know what's worse; that you actually think people will buy this drivel or that you believe it to be true yourself.

Cheaper minerals doesn't mean just cheaper Catalysts/Tornadoes. It also means cheaper supers.

Almost 100 pages of griefer tears.

Awesome.

OK, so people are laughing at you because EHP is the HP which includes the resists, but I won't derail and will instead make the point clearer.

I can make a Vindicator do ~2000 dps and have 5 90% webs, which would make it most efficient in it's role. Sadly, it would only have 45k EHP and so 4 or 5 Catalysts fit for 1mil a piece could take down my 1.5bil battleship in highsec, as I autopiloted to my destination.

However, you are more likely to see people fitting what is commonly known as a "tank" to their ships; this is when you add to the EHP or self rep capability. When you do this, it will break 200k EHP with ease. Sadly, it will no longer do as much DPS (1200-1300) which means you are gimping it's role by at least 40%

Apparently, asking a miner to do what every one else does in the game is just TOO GOSH DARN hard.

You are not a special case, you're just bad at EvE. Taking your 200mil ship and NOT TANKING IT is silly.

It will show on logs.

Adapt or die Heir Wilkens! Quit whining for damm sakes

Yah Heir takes so much pride in what he says, he uses ALT to do it

He is a freaking ganking b*tch and wants easy targets, nough said. Minus, goto to null sec. and he can kill all day long, wait thats not easy

And it isn't even a faucet.

And it's different from mining?

"We want miners to use Hulks again because ganking those isn't a problem!"
"CCP, why we have to tolerate these 30k EHP Hulks?! This game is for gankers after all."

To fit all tank, you need a cpu upgrade or rig.

I use them for tanking. But if I don't put a cpu rig on there, I have to use a cpu upgrade on one of my low slows instead of my reinforced bulkhead II's

That's most pupular "solution" mentioned by gankers in this and other "I hate AFK isk printing" threads.

It seems like someone loves ganking 200k EHP Orcas.

No, I don't use 4chan.

Wikipedia... Greatest source ever...

It was last edited on 3 September 2012. You?

Prove that Wikipedia pages can't be edited by 14 year old kids.

Read OP.

As a ganker, I think the 'base EHP' of a Mackinaw should be below 10K.
A fail-tanked Mackinaw (Max yield, Civilian Shield boosters) should be instapopped by a Tornado, or soloed by a max-Skill T2 Catalyst. A max-tanked Mackinaw should top out around 30K.

Don't have a big problem with the Hulk getting a minor EHP buff, to make it 2nd overall in EHP. After all, mining in a fleet doesn't confer all that much protection from suicide ganking. In one sense, non-bot Hulk-miners are earning their pay through ore hold micromanagement. But it should still be low enough to be vulnerable - otherwise the Skiff becomes pointless.

And the Skiff should simply be 'not rationally gankable' - but the ISK/hr should be significantly less. (not 'equal' to the Mackinaw, except for the lack of MLU low-slots.)

I'd also dial back the Macks Ore hold size.....but allow Cargo Expanders to increase its size beyond what is currently possible.
Give miners a reason to cargo-fit again. Right now its just a 'Tank vs Yield'. The choice should be 'Tank vs Yield vs Cargo'.

That was originally the point of the thread - that CCP is simply patronizing miners by taking away fitting choices and trade offs with one-size-fits all.

Mackinaw: Easiest mining, but riskiest vs ganking
Hulk: Fastest mining, slightly safer - but pain in the ass due to micro and needing an Orca.
Skiff: Safest mining, but not as convenient as the Mack, nor as fast as the Hulk.

Barges need a similar adjustment.

Done right, I think you'd see a much healthier mixture of the 3 Exhumers in highsec.

Oh, also - as a ganker, I wish CCP would make the ORE Strip Miners have a Yield increase instead of a silly range increase. Give miners a reason to use them.

Sure, if we all can wardec Goons and Razer for free. And their alts.

But current Mackinaws can't fit all tank without a cpu upgrade or cpu rig included. Or at least I haven't found a way.

Oh so you're totally fine with nerfing our ship...but if we want a tiny increase in cpu so we have better options when fitting it..thats just out of the question. If you want more use out of these ships or more options for miners...we need the ability to be able to fit the entire 6 ship lineup we have.

I don't think I am entitled to anything, you could remove exhumers tomorrow I would find something else to do in EVE. I am just trying to figure out with you guys who want the Mackinaw nerfed...something that would still keep miners happy without keeping things unbalanced.

Honestly you expect to much from the dullest profession in EVE. You expect miners to do too much while having low hit point ships, while Gankers literally just have to warp in, target, press f1.
You are only thinking of yourselves...

You're right.
As long as the nerfing to the mackinaw doesn't make it easy to kill while tanked I guess I have nothing to really complain about. Perhaps I was expecting a little to much :)

You have one too many med's in there.

This is true but it's because armor logis are useless.

Nobody uses armor in fleets. Scimi and Basi are superior in big fleets compared to armor logis. I've seen many Abaddons with shield buffer.

That must have been many years ago...

I only mine...

Goons use Drake blobs nowadays...

Given that CCP are planning an ORE frig, one might conjecture an ORE frig

Also stealthy, speedy, ewar defended, armor tanky, ranged, t3/reconfigurable. In fact one could list all the things that make the combat ships diverse apart from the attack specialisations....

Did CCP post recently that 25% of people mine? As such a large profession its fantastically under represented in ships - but mainly its under represented in effort. I think they'd be better spending their time on the mining game mechanics to reduce the botability and boredom factors than making a dozen more barges - though a cloaky T3 indy/hybrid miner one would be fun.

Procurers are not speedy.